17 Comments

  1. AAAIIIIGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

    This whole mindset is what makes my current life miserable and has had me on the brink of renouncing Christianity.

    On a refreshing note, I overheard two ladies talking in the store about Christianity. And one I suppose was explaining her beliefs, and saying she doesn’t push it on people … because that causes offense … and we are not to be a stumbling block to others.

    I profess my faith in Jesus Christ by the way I live, and if you ask me I’ll tell you. But I ain’t bumperstickering it on my behind.

    • Thank you for sharing this with me.

      In Christ’s teachings, evangelism takes a back seat to the Golden Rule. It’s also a cornerstone tenet of most religions. If politicians lived by that guiding principle (instead of the litmus tests the candidates faced in that forum), I don’t believe we’d be in the mess we are now.

      • There are two things that stem from this mindset that vex me .. not to say that all evangelical Christians ARE that way … but two ways it’s skewed … at least in my opinion.

        1) once you are “born again” you are no longer a sinner. By our human nature, we sin everyday. Cannot help it. Can try to avoid it. Can try to be better. But every human sins. That’s why you always ask for forgiveness.

        2) Being “born again” makes you better than everyone else, and gives you certain entitlements.

        And excuuuuuuuuuuuse me… you have to be “born again” to be a “good” person …. errrrr …. I don’t have enough appendages to count the number of times me and mine have been hurt in everything from a minor to major way by a “born again” Christian.

        • And excuuuuuuuuuuuse me… you have to be “born again” to be a “good” person …. errrrr …. I don’t have enough appendages to count the number of times me and mine have been hurt in everything from a minor to major way by a “born again” Christian.

          Amen to this.

          I don’t want to be the person who hates all Christians because I was hurt by *some*, but I can understand why a lot of people feel that way.

          • I think one of the kindest, most useful things we can do is to avoid painting everyone who’s “not like us” with the same broad brush. This extends to politics, religion, appearances, orientations, whatever. We learn and grow so much when we value one another as much as we love ourselves.

            How’s the married lady, by the way? 🙂

  2. Great points.

    Your post reminded me of a dream my 10 yo had the other night. In the dream, The End was near. Everyone had to catch a flight off Earth and to Heaven before the clouds overhead passed by. There were just two clouds left, and she was still frantically trying to order her “ticket to Heaven” online, the way we buy movie tickets.

  3. I got stuck in the protest rallies. I saw mostly Obama supporters but after talking to some women at the gym today I can see why I saw something different than what has been reported on CNN.

    • What were they protesting at the rallies? I’m curious about what happened outside CNN’s camera lens.

      I tried to get tickets, so I could see and hear the candidates myself. Unfortunately, by the time I requested them, the only ones left were a whopping $500. and up!

      • It was crazy! The Obama protesters were shouting for change. There was this big group of elderly people with signs too. And I’m serious, this one elderly man had a sign plastered to his walker! The mega phone was blaring–Power to the People. Tables were set up across from the church with Obama posters, t-shirts, and other things. Two fire trucks went by with Obama for Change 08. The signs were plastered on each truck while went by with their sirens on. People cheered. Down with the War was another popular message. I honked my horn at those signs.

        The women at the gym said the cost of the tickets was crazy. One said almost 1,000 dollars! No wonder I felt the anger of the protesters. If it was suppose to be about diversity they sure weren’t showing it.

        I also saw this really disgusting anti-abortion sign. I was so glad I didn’t take my son, who wanted to go with me when I ran those errands. He’s already hyper but I think that sign alone would have scared him. That and all the people screaming and shouting. At the entrance of Saddleback church were two police on horses. I’ve never seen that. And a humuguous poster with both Obama and McCain pictures on it.

        It was so crazy, Melody. What’s sad is I don’t really care for either candiate or I would have parked my truck and joined in. I also agree religion should be out of politics. That really bothers me.

  4. I couldn’t agree with you more, Melodye. Thank you for so eloquently expressing my feelings about religion and politics. And you’re spot-on about walking into the trap that will now provide more red meat to the Right.

    Sigh.

    • Funny thing is, I worried about offending someone by posting this. So I’m glad it resonated with you and a few others. We don’t always have to agree, do we? But we do have an obligation, I think, to discover and speak our own truths.

      And yeah, how is it that savvy politicians still manage to get out-foxed?

  5. AMEN!! I couldn’t agree more!! Religion and politics should never mix but sadly in this election the far right is pushing it hard … and it’s my personal opinion that they are doing so simply because they do not want to play the race card. That would make them look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world … but one’s religion … well, that is fair game!

    What’s religion got to do with whether or not a person would be a good leader, a good president? More and more I’m coming to believe that religion(organized religion)is the root of all evil.

    Our wise men are called Fathers, and they truly sustain that character. Do you call yourselves Christians? Does the religion of Him who you call your Savior inspire your spirit, and guide your practices? Surely not. It is recorded of him that a bruised reed he never broke. Cease then to call yourselves Christians, lest you declare to the world your hypocrisy. Cease too to call other nations savage, when you are tenfold more the children of cruelty than they. No person among us desires any other reward for performing a brave and worthwhile action, but the consciousness of having served his nation. I bow to no man for I am considered a prince among my own people. But I will gladly shake your hand.”
    Joseph Brant to King George III
    Joseph Brant (Thayendanegea), Mohawk – 1742-1807

    “In early days we were close to nature. We judged time, weather conditions, and many things by the elements–the good earth, the blue sky, the flying of geese, and the changing winds. We looked to these for guidance and answers. Our prayers and thanksgiving were said to the four winds–to the East, from whence the new day was born; to the South, which sent the warm breeze which gave a feeling of comfort; to the West, which ended the day and brought rest; and to the North, the Mother of winter whose sharp air awakened a time of preparation for the long days ahead. We lived by God’s hand through nature and evaluated the changing winds to tell us or warn us of what was ahead. Today we are again evaluating the changing winds. May we be strong in spirit and equal to our Fathers of another day in reading the signs accurately and interpreting them wisely.”
    Unknown Speaker addressing the National Congress of American Indians in the mid 1960’s

  6. Very, very, very well said, Melodye. That would be change I too could believe in. But until we have a population interested in educating and informing themselves, I think this is only going to get worse. There are an overwhelming number of people that still hold to the belief that this country, that the Declaration, the Constitution and all of our Rights were founded on Christian Scripture… conveniently ignoring the mountain of documents that directly contradict that. But that’s what they’re being taught by some either through their own ignorance or their own agenda. The generations coming through the schools today largely believe this was a country intended to be a “Christian Nation.” Until we can break through that wall of ignorance, I fear that the wall of separation between Church and State will continue to erode. (that’s one thing I intend to fix when I teach. lol…)

    I was a bit disturbed by the Warren forum. I think that sort of venue only goes to further the misperception about the place of religion in our government. And personally, I think we need to do away with the Office of Faith Based Initiatives altogether… the government shouldn’t be meddling in religious affairs any more than the religious should be meddling in governmental affairs.

    I want this to be a country where we are all truly free to worship as we see fit. But the fact that a Pagan soldier killed in Iraq couldn’t have a symbol of his faith on his tombstone shows me that we’ve got a long way to go yet. It saddens me. There is truth, validity and beauty in ALL religions… and we should learn to respect the faiths of others.

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